An Embarrasing Honing Situation

Gentleman, I am in a position where I must ask a question, though it is somewhat embarrasing to do so. It is embarrasing because I've been shaving with straights and honing them on my own since I was a teenager. However, I've only gone through or used/purchased a dozen or so in my lifetime. In recent history, I've been using a 1/4k norton and what I believe to be around an 8,000 grit shapton, and an old strop, which I've never had the need to paste. I have always, ALWAYS been able to easily and quickly hone my razors, but I've recently come into one that has me stumped. It's a newer dovo, and I've tried honing it on three separate occasions. I've tried every trick I know. Honing method, hones, strop are all tried and true. But for the life of me, I can't get this dovo blade to shave without pulling. It's ALMOST there, but won't pass a certain sharpness point, at least with me at the controls and with my equipment. I'm wondering if anyone has any advice, and, because I've never used paste on a strop before, will paste give me that little extra that I need to make this razor shaveable?

I'd more likely suspect the bevel than the end game but not seeing the razor that's just a WAG.

I suspected that too after the first honing and beard-pull, but by the second and third time honing, doing as I've always done, cutting arm hair on the 1k no problem each time, and the 4k, AND the finisher, I decided to put that 1k stone down lest I take off too much material, because I figured I ruled that bevel-option out. Maybe too much buildup in the finishing hone, or strop, I don't know. Maybe my beard is growing courser or I'm getting dementia

So the other extreme is you may have a bit of a wire edge.
Sometimes looking at the edge under magnification can give you an idea on what's happening.

I sometimes use a lighted 45x microscope, but my eyes have gone south in recent years so I usually do a TNT for that one, and no wire edge shows itself. I also back-honed a few strokes on my finisher and stropped. I suppose there could be one and I'm just not paying close enough attention to detail. I'll check for that tomorrow...why would I have this issue on this razor, and no other?

I'm suggesting the scope at the end not just at bevel set. You don't use the TNT at 8k do you ?
At worse you can send it out to someone for an assessment & /or fix. Some times a different perspective helps.

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Originally Posted by joenasarino

will paste give me that little extra that I need to make this razor shaveable?

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Sometimes you have to just stop and think . It is may not be me?
gl

I do remember a thread about some defective Dovos being sold on Ebay. The problem was that they were difficult, if not impossible to hone because of a spine malady of sorts. I think it was in the beginner forum. If it came from Ebay, that might be it? I hope not.

My first question would be what is the "what I believe to be around an 8,000 grit shapton"? Second question is off which hone is the razor not where it's supposed to be. In other words, are you positive the bevel is the best it can be, and are you sure you took the razor where it needs to go off the 4k? If both those are yes, then perhaps the razor and the possibly 8kish Shapton don't play well.

I'm kinda wondering how a Shapton can be "around 8k" :)

I had a razor that was giving me fits and sent it to a friend to hone to see if he could do anything with it. Since you say you've successfully honed the other razors you've been shaving with I don't know what the problem might be. Send it to a known honemeister and see if they have better luck with it than you are having would be my advice.

I have had the same problem with a TI Silverwing. My vintage TOS eventually got it where I like it. Tams are known for their ability to remove microchips.

My 2 cts

I would like to know what kind of shapton you have. It must be one of the Professional stones, because the new Glas Stones have the girt rating printed on them behind glass.
Besides the Shapton Professionals there are some uncommon Shaptons called M24 and others, pretty similar to the Professional but with a stand.
Maybe you can post a picture, and we can help you identify the stone.

The problem with your freshly honed Dovo may be a problem with the bevel.
Most of the time it is an insufficiently set bevel that causes problems later on.
Maybe you want to reset the bevel on the Norton 1.000 firmly, and spend a little more time on the 4.000.
New Dovos have a pretty bad Bevel, cause (if I remember correctly) they are not honed with the spine flat on the stone/grinding machine in the factory.
If you feel comfortable try your finisher and see what you can get.
If you won´t get anywhere, let an experienced honemeister decide what is best for your razor =)

I'm 99% positive that the dovo is sound, "defective dovo" sounds like, well, you know :) But I also know that different steel can be more or less easily honed, and since I've never honed a dovo, it's likely I'm just not working it the way it likes to be worked.. I've ruled out a wire edge, and no I would not do a TNT test after the finisher.. My Shapton is old, as am I, and I can't remember where I bought it, let alone its exact grit, as it is not stamped anywhere, but I've been using it as a finisher for a while, and it has always produced an acceptable edge, so I assume its around 8k. I also assume that the bevel is set, because I've tried honing it 3 times, 2 of which I started on a 1k. I can see normal sharpness off of the 1k, but the 4k doesn't improve it that much, and the 8k doesn't either. From what I've seen, both the 4k and the 8k should work together to put that final edge on, but it's just not coming. I'm going to fiddle around with it some more, and will just have to get it honed by someone else or put it away for a while if I can't figure it out.

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Originally Posted by joenasarino

I'm 99% positive that the dovo is sound, "defective dovo" sounds like, well, you know :)

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Sorry if I seem to have suggested your razor was defective! As you will see I did say I hoped not! The statement in the thread was commented on by razortalkin, who is quite an authority. Learning how it goes here! Good luck and I hope you get it straightened out!

Well lets look at this logically. If the razor is not defective you have ruled that out. If the bevel was properly set and you could shave off the 4K you were on your way. If failure happens after the 1K and the bevel looks great then go back to the 4 or if it shaves but on the 8 you can't make an improvement go back to the 8. There are no demons in a Dovo they hone up pretty straight forward so I suspect the factor is you.

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

The problem with your freshly honed Dovo may be a problem with the bevel.
Most of the time it is an insufficiently set bevel that causes problems later on.
Maybe you want to reset the bevel on the Norton 1.000 firmly, and spend a little more time on the 4.000.
New Dovos have a pretty bad Bevel, cause (if I remember correctly) they are not honed with the spine flat on the stone/grinding machine in the factory.
If you feel comfortable try your finisher and see what you can get.
If you won´t get anywhere, let an experienced honemeister decide what is best for your razor =)

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I also think this is the problem . If this is the case (99% sure it is) the bevel will be steeper than it normally would be , if the spine was held on the stone when honing . The reason that you are not getting anywhere with all your honing is that the factory bevel is keeping the edge of the razor from making contact with the hone . you will need to establish the new , lower bevel angle on the 1k , before you can make any progress . Do the marker test on your blade , and it will show you if your bevel is set right .

If there are any doubt about the bevel being set you can dull it on glass so when it cuts you know its your work
I dont know any other way to be perfectly sure...

guys, I've been running it over a 1,000 grit norton for three separate honing sessions. You really think the bevel isn't set? I mean I haven't set bevels on very many razors, but I've never had one that took that much work on a 1,000 grit stone. After the blade pushes water all along the edge and cuts my arm hair, I pretty much assume the bevel is done. Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by joenasarino

guys, I've been running it over a 1,000 grit norton for three separate honing sessions. You really think the bevel isn't set? I mean I haven't set bevels on very many razors, but I've never had one that took that much work on a 1,000 grit stone. After the blade pushes water all along the edge and cuts my arm hair, I pretty much assume the bevel is done. Am I wrong?

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who knows? only you have seen the razor and it's impossible to evaluate its condition over the internet. everything is best guesses based on whatever similar experiences we have had.
so, why dont you just make sure the bevel is good on 1k and take that out of the question. here's how you do it - run it very lightly breadknife style over your 'around 8k shapton' or the norton 4k. that'll make it dull (verify this) but not too far off to require extensive work. then you get back on the 1k or 4k until it cuts again.
that'll ensure no double bevel whatsoever on the razor. and then you can take it from there.

You know what, that is a good idea, and it won't remove much metal to be dead certain if that is it. Janovar mentioned dulling the blade like that, too. Here goes...

So I'm back, did the dulling the blade test...It wasn't the bevel that was off. The razor started cutting my arm hairs again after 20 circles. Which, I decided to use instead of strokes, because upon closer examination after dulling and-resetting the bevel, I realized that there were a couple spots on the 4k side of the hone which were...gritty. And I didn't feel it before. This time around, I felt the texture changed in the middle of the stroke, so used the non-gritty area for circles. No problems now. Shame on me:( thanks to all who helped

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Originally Posted by joenasarino

So I'm back, did the dulling the blade test...It wasn't the bevel that was off. The razor started cutting my arm hairs again after 20 circles. Which, I decided to use instead of strokes, because upon closer examination after dulling and-resetting the bevel, I realized that there were a couple spots on the 4k side of the hone which were...gritty. And I didn't feel it before. This time around, I felt the texture changed in the middle of the stroke, so used the non-gritty area for circles. No problems now. Shame on me:( thanks to all who helped

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It sounds like the 4k side needs more lapping

yes, it most certainly does. such a little thing makes such a big difference sometimes

This is not the first time I read about grittiness of a Norton. I cannot understand why they still are recommended here.

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Originally Posted by Kees

This is not the first time I read about grittiness of a Norton. I cannot understand why they still are recommended here.

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Huh? Based on such ambiguous criteria is there anything you can recommend ever?

I certainly would very much like to buy 1-5 hones that can fix quickly any razor with 3mm chip to the finest possible edge, cost about $50 total, preferably much less, and don't require any maintenance ever. Same things about a razor that's guaranteed to give the best possible shave, costs $10-$15 honed and doesn't show any signs of wear....

I also read a bunch of times on the internet that using shaving brush will cause antrax and kill you. On shaving websites.

:shrug:

I think what the guys are saying, among other things is; You need to be sure what stones your using. That's important. Some razors do take longer than others. Just step away, and start fresh another time. This has worked for me in the past.

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Originally Posted by Kees

This is not the first time I read about grittiness of a Norton. I cannot understand why they still are recommended here.

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I have been recommending for at least a couple years now, that you should lap the Norton 4K past the gritty outer layer. Once you do, you get one of the most reliable and consistent hones out there in my opinion. I still use my Norton 4K/8K combos about 50 percent of the time and still wear out the 4K side a couple times a year.

As I mentioned previously, I had a razor that I could never get up to the level I wanted. A custom S30-V blade. It would shave but I wasn't satisfied with it and kept taking it back to the hones. I had a bunch of alternative hones and used them all but couldn't get it where I wanted it to be.

Sent it to a friend who is known to be a honemeister and he worked on it and told me that it would never give a really comfortable shave. I finally dialed it in with a Nakayama Asagi that I got from a forum member. My honemeister friend had taken it to a level where that little bit more from the j-nat seemed to do the trick.

Yesterday I gave it ten round trips on my Livi loom strop chrom ox canvas. Stropped on clean linen and leather 50/50 and now the thing is super sharp and smooth. Have to see how long it lasts but my point is that some are just tougher than others. If you've got some chrom-ox do some laps on that lightly and politely after you get it as good as you can on the hones. :gl:

the nortons are funny...I initially lapped this stone on 220 wet/dry, then on 400, then on 600, for quite a while, because I still felt that gritty feeling. I thought it was gone, and now it seemed after several honings and lappings some gritty spots reappeared...that I find strange. Has anyone found different layers of grittyness in their stone? Lynn? I'm just hoping I don't lap this thing down to a nub and find there's still a gritty spot..

by the way jimmy, congrats on your 15,000th post! Also, your experience with a stubborn razor sounds just like mine, thank you-this razor issue I had here makes me wonder if I'm losing my touch or what..It has been the most stubborn to coax an edge out of

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Originally Posted by joenasarino

the nortons are funny...I initially lapped this stone on 220 wet/dry, then on 400, then on 600, for quite a while, because I still felt that gritty feeling. I thought it was gone, and now it seemed after several honings and lappings some gritty spots reappeared...that I find strange. Has anyone found different layers of grittyness in their stone? Lynn? I'm just hoping I don't lap this thing down to a nub and find there's still a gritty spot..

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On all that I have had, I have taken the stone down about 1/8 inch and the grainy or gritty has been gone for the duration.

Then its back to the sandpaper for me :( I don't think I got more than a mm or two down.

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Originally Posted by joenasarino

Then its back to the sandpaper for me :( I don't think I got more than a mm or two down.

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AS mentioned early Norton is the one of the consistent and easy to learn hone. get it clean up an you will love it.gl